Category: Let's talk
So this may seem totally random, but I thought it's worth sharing. Here's a little background on the subject of my post:
A friend of mine committed suicide last week. It was exactly a week ago. He wasn't a super close friend; I haven't seen him in a couple of years actually, but I played with him as a kid all the time since his grandma and my mom were coworkers and good friends.
Still, though this person wasn't especially close to me, his death weighs very heavy on my mind, and having read all of the tributes his friends from adulthood posted in memory of him, I'm left wishing I'd stayed in touch more and got to know him better in his later years.
A family member of his creatted a fb page dedicated to his memory, and the following is the tribute and message posted on that page. I'm sharing because it's relevant not just to those of us who actually knew the guy, but to whoever might be struggling down the road of depression, or who knows and loves someone dealing with this demon:
Please share:
To know PJ was to know love. He didn't just "like" anyone, if you were in his life, he loved you. An unselfish, caring soul - the "go to guy" and life of the party... PJ's generosity of self was enjoyed and appreciated by many, but exhausting to himself. Sensitive for a "big tough tattooed guy", ever since PJ was little, he was always looking out for, and encouraging those around him who were down. When he was 4 years old, he asked to watch Charlottes Web, and was so sad for the pig who was undeniably having a tough go, that he cried out "I'LL BE YOUR FRIEND, WILBER!" the first time he sided with someone who seemingly had no one on their side. Four years old, and understood the responsibility of befriending someone truly, especially when no one else would.
Robin Williams said "I think the saddest people always try their hardest to make other people happy, because they know what it feels like to feel absolutely worthless, and they don't want anyone else to feel like that". This is PJ. The guy who to the expense of himself, gave of himself above and beyond expectations. The boy who solved other people's problems, and brought peace and comfort to their mind, but never was quite able to do the same for himself.
25 years may not seem like enough, until you realize the gravity of his presence in those 25 years. 25 years of unconditional admiration for his sister Stacy, 25 years of being the dependable best friend of his sister Jennifer, 25 years of love and sharing, and laughter with his mother, who believes the sun rises and set upon him, 25 years the dedicated son and namesake of his father, a man he aspired to be just like. 25 years of unjudgemental companionship for his friends, 25 years of being a sweetheart to the girls... 25 years of playing happy. 25 years of confusion as to why it wouldn't click for him, why he couldn't settle, 25 years of effort, 25 years of hiding his flaws so others wouldn't be troubled, 25 years of living in the moment, and taking in life fully with an open heart and an open mind as it happened to him. 25 years of giving, till there was nothing left to give.
Clinical depression is an often misunderstood concept. Snap out of it! What have you got to be sad for? I have bad days too, cheer up! Sound familiar? To PJ, and to people who struggle with depression, there was seemingly no escape, there was no snapping out of it, and he himself would be the first to say, he couldn't understand why he was so.. so.. sad sometimes. Why he was so exhausted, when he just had so much fun out. He surrounded himself with light, with positivity, with love, he went to the doctors and tried to balance the chemical imbalance of his mind with prescribed medication. The medication would work for while, but then would come the doubt... why can't I do this myself.. why do I need to be "on something" to feel "normal" - I'm going to stop, I don't want to be dependent. Ultimately, after the fight.. came the giving up - I can't get better.. so I'll just escape.. with a drink.. with a smoke.. with whatever could give me peace, a break from my racing mind.
PJ did not overdose. Clinically, medically - even legally - yes, the combination of sleeping pills and liquor in his system stopped his heart, and he slipped away. But not, in the way that we as a society think of what overdosing means. PJ made a researched, calculated decision to find peace around 2am on August 13, 2015 outside under the stars, in a field he had visited many times to play fetch with Admiral, to clear his mind, to watch the sunset, and yes, even to have drink or smoke with friends. It wasn't over a girl, or a fight, or a job... or any of the things that we who remain try to blame for the senseless tragedy that reminds us of our own mortality. PJ was just... tired. Too tired to keep giving himself, too tired to fight his mind, too tired to just go through another day. So, after pushing away the people who could have stopped him, after isolating himself, and after a great deal of thinking... he consumed the pills he had in his bag, along with a can of coke spiked with rum, neatly placed the items in his backpack, and laid down peacefully where he slipped into his next big adventure. When he was found, the first responders all believed he was just sleeping.. because of how incredibly peaceful he seemed. Sleeping, finally in peace and comfortably under the big sky and bright stars he loved.
For those who are sad, for those who do not understand, and for those who cry out in chaos WHY WHY WHY... or I loved him more! Or he loved me most! Or I was his MOST best friend... I'm the more destroyed one than you! Be still. Please. The last thing he would have wanted, was to cause someone distress, sadness, or confusion. In his honor, find your own peace, listen more to those around you, be present. PJ loved greatly, love him back by honoring his quest for peace.. and keeping peace yourselves. Learn from PJ how to be a better friend, how to be a more present person, and how to appreciate the sunrise.
I understand many people will say how suicide is stupid and selfish and all that but let's really look at this. If someone truly is depressed enough to end it all we need to acknowledge our collective role. After all, we make up society. Maybe we shouldn't be so cruil. Maybe we should reach out once and a while and stop thinking of only ourselves. Humanity has a long way to go.
Fantastic. I hope those who would judge him too harshly will think twice, and those who morn his loss will grieve without guilt or bitterness. I had more to say, but apparently I was being too verbose and annoying because my computer closed internet explorer.
You should give it another shot B g. I, for one, would like to know more of where you stand on this subject as many religious types feel it is wrong.
Yeah, BG, please elaborate when you have the time. :)
Margorp, I agree with you. In fact, I've sort of been struggling with the fact that maybe, I could have reached out to the guy. I didn't know him well as I said, as an adult at least, but, and I'm not proud of the following: we were friends on FB, and to be honest, the guy posted some statuses that sort of made you think: ok you're not actually thinking of ending your life, are you? Some statuses that, because I knew him to some degree, I was confused about whether he was being honestly serious or cryptic or just plain joking. But I have a really hard time reaching out to people especially if I've lost touch with them over some long period of time and the topic about wich I'd get in touch with them is kind of, well, tough. I remember going back and forth with myself: hey, maybe I should just send him a message, ask him if he's ok, does he need someone to talk to. Then I'd think: no, stupid, why the hell would he want to talk to you? He's got a million closer friends than you've been to him in years, he's just going to get pissed at you for butting your nose into his business.
So I sort of left it at that. I sent him a message when his grandma died saying I'm around if he wanted to talk, but I left it at that. And I'm not kidding; when I saw my FB feed blow up with messages about someone passing away by people we mutually knew, I couldn't help it, he immediately came to mind even before I confirmed it was him.
There's such a stigma about suicide, but to be honest, those of us who keep saying it's such a selfish act, that the people who kill themselves are cowards, that they're worthless now that they've chosen the path, well, none of them have ever really been at that point. I'm sure a ton of people think about suicide now and again, some are more serious than others, some make attempts and others talk about how they're going to try. But how much pain and fatigue and suffering does it take for someone to actually go through with it for good? How Where do you have to be within your own mind to say to hell with it and face the task of dying alone and by your own hand? And how clouded must your mind be to trick you into thinking that noone will give a shit if you're here or not?
I don't think those who say the deed is selfish have ever even remotely been in that dark a place. I haven't thought of suicide myself, but I've been affected by it more than just this once. And it makes me think each time.
And the real kicker is: so many people who actually do go through with it are kind, funny, smart, understanding, just like this guy was.
Sure, he did a lot of crazy shit in his time; he was kind of a party animal, etc. but at the core he really seemed like one of the good guys. So how does this happen? I think as a society, we don't ask ourselves this enough, and we don't believe in the destructive powers of actual clinical depression to take this issue from a sweep-it-under-the-rug type of stigma to an actual problem that needs to be talked about and addressed.
We need to stop railing against it and really sit down and face it.
Wow, what a beautiful tribute. I see a lot of myself in the descriptions of PJ and his struggles. I didn't even know him but he sounds like he would have been a wonderful person to know.
I'm for suicide to a certain extent, like if a person has some serious painful illness that is unlikely to be cured. My father did it for a really dumb reason IMO, just because he lost his job.
Ok, impy, but what about if your father's job loss was just his last straw? And what an incurable painful illness may be to one person versus another may vary. For instance, maybe someone would say, "man if i ever go blind I want to kill myself." whereas, we're all here and proof that living with blindness does work, right?
And that's just it though true clinical depression is apparently a painful, debilitating, condition that you can't make your way out of. this case is proof of that.
I mean, everyone who knew the guy could positively tell you that he genuinely loved the people he hung out with, loved the connections he made with people, loved to do his job and his hobbies; his mom was just saying to mine this morning how he'd literally come back from what he'd say was the best date ever, the awesomest job interview, the most memorable trip with friends, etc. and he'd just be pissed and balling his eyes out for no reason he could pinpoint.
So we just never really know.
And BG, yeah, I mean, this tribute wasn't even the half of what people said about this guy in the last week. I've read through all these memries people had of him and I've contributed some of my own, and I'm left wishing I'd gotten to know him better because he really was one hell of a person. All those people can't be lying and no one could ever be inspired to write this sort of a tribute about a regular schmuck. lol
Hands up. You're right.
The need for pills has been a sore spot for a lot of us with depression, Bipolar, and whatever. The only thing I can do, is keep trying.
But, I understand your friend. And, I know you didn't keep in touch with him. But, don't let that stop you.
I say to anyone reading this board.
Is there someone you haven't talked to in a few years? Six months? Give them a call. You may save their life, or not. But, you can say you did. And, I have attempted the ending of my life. I'm glad I didn't succeed!
Blessings,
Sarah
Sarah gives us all something to try. Go into your list of numbers and call someone you haven't in a while. You may just get voice mail or something but it is always good to reach out.
I'm sorry to know that this guy felt so low that he took it upon himself to commit suicide. Sure it's easy for people to say that it isn't selfish, but the reality is that a person's suicide affects many lives, not just one. This guy is gone forever and now his family and friends will have to live with the guilt, the sadness, the heartache for the rest of their lives. That's far from a beautiful thing. My heart goes out to those people.
Oh don't get me wrong, my heart goes out to the family as well. All I am saying is let's look at the big picture.
I can very clearly see both sides of it.
While i've never tried to commit suicide, the thoughts have been very much there and I felt so so so so low and I felt no-one understood. I've always had extremely supportive parents but even they couldn't understand what I was going through. I wasn't even diagnosed with depression then though I was several years later; go figure.
So yes, on one hand I can totally see how it can seem very very selfish on the loved ones and friends left behind, but on the other, as people have said, it's better to look at the bigger picture. I can't explain the feelings of complete helplesness that I and others can feel which can easily lead to a successful suicide. So often too many people do make those comments like 'don't be so silly" etc - makes you feel much much worse.
You know what I mean - even more worthless than you already feel if that's at all possible.
"Post 13 of 15
chelslicious
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The Zone-BBS is my prison, but I like it here. 35374 posts
yesterday 18:59:03
I'm sorry to know that this guy felt so low that he took it upon himself to commit suicide. Sure it's easy for people to say that it isn't selfish, but
the reality is that a person's suicide affects many lives, not just one. This guy is gone forever and now his family and friends will have to live with
the guilt, the sadness, the heartache for the rest of their lives. That's far from a beautiful thing. My heart goes out to those people."
I don't think anyone is saying in general terms that suicide is a beautiful thing. It sounds to me like those who loved him are choosing to see the beauty in the tragedy. He was in terrible pain but now he is at peace.
As for suicide being selfish, 99% of what we do every day is selfish. Usually those things don't have such
a strong impact on others but is was stated above if you are feeling low enough to contemplate killing yourself, being judged as selfish for wishing to not feel that way anymore is not in any way helpful. We are all essentially selfish beings, some of us have more compassion than others but it is our innate sense of self preservation that usually keeps us alive and getting through the next day.
That is very beautifully written. NO, suicide itself is not a beautiful thing. I did make a very serious attempt on my life years ago, one that doctors say they are not sure how I survived at all, let alone with my organs like liver and kidneys intact. At first they thought I would need transplants, and that only if I lived. So, the difference is his suicide worked, mine didn't, but I know the darkness that brings one to that point, and it's crushing. There's nothing beautiful about that darkness, and the road to getting to that final spot. However, sometimes, there is a strange peace that comes when you're there, and in that final irrational moment, for some, I think it does finally feel right when the choice is made. Like anything else, suicide can happen either violently, or as in this case, relatively peacefully.
But it's an irrational peace. People who say suicide is selfish are coming at it from a very rational, logical point of view. I do understand what they're getting at: they think a person who kills themselves may not care about his or her family and friends, because they are leaving those people to deal with the pain of loss, guilt, and a myriad of other emotions. I understand that. I've had family and friends who have killed themselves, and years ago, I thought of them as selfish, because I had to live with that pain. From my rational and relatively pain-free perspective at that time, it was easy to think of it that way. . Like Imp's Dad's suicide looks that way. It could be said that a man is selfish for killing himself and leaving his wife and son to deal with the consequences and live without him. When I was out of the hospital after my attempt, I was told by several that I was selfish, that apparently I didn't give a shit about my family and friends. I knew that wasn't true, and it was the worst thing they could have said to me. But having thought it about family of my own who'd killed themselves before, I knew at least why they thought it.
But there's the other side that I have now personally lived. Where the depression does feel equal to any physical illness that is causing extreme suffering, and is terminal. That's eventually how I thought of the depression: terminal. That I would always endure the suffering I felt then, the pain, the darkness, the never getting it right no matter what treatments I tried, no matter how hard I worked to get better. It's interesting how some people believe in killing oneself in the case of a terminal physical illness, but don't think of suicide from mental illness the same way. Yet at that point, to the sufferer, it can feel like the same thing.
But it's true that sometimes, depression can be recovered from and lived with, even managed well. After I survived my attempt on my life, I was able to finally start to get better. I know that's not the way it works for everyone, though.
In some ways, I'm glad your friend is no longer enduring that suffering, Bernadetta. In another, I am sad that because it worked, he never got the chance to know life out from under the crushing weight of his illness. Either way, he made his choice, and anyone who trashes him for it is being disrespectful to his memory, his family, and anyone who loved him. Thanks for sharing. sorry if I didn't articulate myself well in this post.
Suicide is not pretty.
It is my opinion we that suffer, get angry, and such at a person that has left us are the selfish ones, not them.
When they are living, most times, we know they have depression, but we don’t go hand in hand with them to help them.
If they are sick, we can’t trade places with them and share the sickness.
We can’t even feel what they feel.
If they decide to bring their life to an end, how have they hurt us?
Sure, we can be sad, but we cannot blame them, because we can’t share or carry any of the load.
We are the selfish for wanting them to continue carrying that load for our sakes.
You friend that is depressed won’t stop you moving to another city if you see fit.
Your friend won’t stop you from going out if you see fit.
They don’t even stop you from enjoying your life as you see fit, so why should you get mad with them for making a choice not to continue?
Sure, sometimes it is a financial hardship, and other things, but adults should rely on themselves for the happiness or whatever, not others.
The happiness others bring to us are benefits, not owed.
In this case, and some others I’ve experienced, it was peaceful, so we should be happy they are at peace.
Sure, we can wish we would have done more, but we can’t save anyone that won’t be saved.
Exactly. We're not heros.
No, and we're not justified wanting someone to remain in the pain, or whatever for us.
Doesn't that sound selfish?
Yup it's cruil as well.
I want to comment on Alicia's post. I attempted suicide several times. But, when it got serious and I tried hanging myself, I got help.
In some ways, I feel stronger for living. You guys that never tried it, don't know how odd you are for years, to your family. They look at you like you committed a crime. And, God knows the pain of depression is really. It's a pain! It's terrible, and I know why people feel so much they have to stop the pain. We don't try to piss others off. We attempt it, because, pardon my language, it hurts like a mother-fucker, and it's real pain, and we want to stop hurting "like a mother-fucker."
If you broke your hand, wouldn't you want a Vikadin to stop the pain? Well a Vik won't stop the mental anguish. And, folks, that's what it is. And, when people alienate you, you wish you'd succeeded.
However, Alicia and I, are brave. We should get a fucken gold metal, for putting up with the bad attitudes. We're still alive, after people rebuked us, laughed at me at least, told us we were selfish, and Thank the Good God of Heaven, we are here to tell a tale of success in living!
I just poured my soul out here, and I don't do that. I'm glad I made it! I'm vwery glad. But, God be with the ones that never find the success of life.
And, God help their poor broken family and friends.
Blessings,
Sarah
Well Sarah you one the battle. People who spit on others deserve punishing. The punishment for them is your success. Good for you and hold your head up high!
First, Bernadetta, on reading back over my board post, I feel like a total jerk. I was so intent on making my point that I can't believe I overlooked this. The first thing I should have said, above anything else, was that i'm so sorry for your loss, and for the pain and guilt it has caused you. Hugs.
In all fairness Sarah, the lousy attitudes I got after my attempt were the minority. Most people were nothing but loving and supportive, and wanted nothing more than to help me recover. Even the ones who would have had the most right to give me crap, like the friend who first discovered me and called in the paramedics, was nothing but supportive, even though it had been a deeply traumatic experience for her. My most vocal critic was someone I already knew to be an asshole, so I knew better than to take his opinions to heart.
Critics are equal to fish food.
Alicia, looks like you had a bit of a better time of it. I had lots of judges who thought I was just trying to get attention.
I have to say that getting help was the best thing I did. The one thing bugging me, is that people still don't understand why a person could feel so low. If I can help people to remove the reasons for wanting it to end, I'll be satisfied.
But, I want everyone happy, and that's going to take a miracle. LOL But, if I try to help others see the good here, then I've done my part. I can't take the sadness away, but I can try to comfort the sad. That's all I can do. And, that's really where it's at.
Hope you all smile once today.
Blessings,
Sarah
Well said! We should all take time out to find at least one good thing to take away from something. Your only other option is a descent into madness.
Okay, I just want to hit on a few things.
First of all, I'm sorry, Bernadetta, that a friend has died. No matter what comes after this in my post, please remember that. PJ's death was a shame. It is sad that he couldn't get out from under his misery. Having never been all the way down like that, I don't know how it feels.
But now I'm going to kind of address two points people have made here.
First, selfishness. We have this skewed definition of "selfish" these days; nowadays it denotes actions which fail to take others into account, in such a way that it has an automatically negative connotation. Well here's the reality of it. When something is selfish, it is centered around the self. PJ couldn't handle living anymore, so he committed suicide. That is about the most selfish act you can commit.
BUT!
That doesn't mean he was wrong. I'm personally in agreement with those who've expressed incredulity that mental illness is not seen for what it is. In other words, he had some serious problems and he just...couldn't get over them. In that way, it's much like a terminal illness of sorts, and he made the decision to end his struggle.
So yes, this decision is extremely selfish. But I'm personally of the belief that selfishness is not only not always or even often a bad thing, but is sometimes absolutely vital. If you aren't selfish some of the time, you will suffer for it. Frankly, PJ shouldn't be contemplating what his death will do to other people if he's really in that last extremity. Using the shame of "he didn't think of the people he left behind" as a means of lynching him after he's dead is really rather tasteless. He couldn't handle it, and he made a choice. Some of us would do the same, some of us wouldn't. It doesn't matter. What matters is that he's gone, he will be missed, and it's a crying shame he isn't still alive and able to be helped.
So that's point one, and I hope I didn't piss anyone off. The next one will, if either does, however.
And it has to do with how people talk about the dead. It has been my experience, I'm afraid, that unless someone was a complete and utter asshole while they lived, they'll be elevated to near-mythical status when they die. It makes much of what's said about a dead person suspect, in my eyes, particularly if it's not specific and is related to general traits and the like. I watched it happen, for months on end, when my brother died; even my close family got in on it sometimes. There's a saying I read once, in a book somewhere, and it applies especially to the dead: "When it comes to the past, we all stack the deck". I doubt it's even intentional, but good deeds grow larger than life and bad deeds get glossed over. The inverse sometimes happens for the living; some bad deeds are glorified while other better things are forgotten, or rendered small.
All this is not to say that PJ was an asshole. I frankly didn't know him. I'm not even challenging what people said about him. I have zero grounds to do that, since I didn't know him and don't know the people telling stories and trading nice words. At worst, I'm saying that just because ten or twenty people say nice things about a dead person doesn't actually mean they're entirely true. I do agree, however, that the more people speak well of someone who has died, the better chance they were well-regarded in life as well.
Sue me. I guess I'm a bit of a cynic at heart.
All this having been said, I do think the first post was rather well-written and quite evocative. It made me sad for what was lost. One way or another, this man's suffering is over, and that's probably the most important thing here.
Actually Gregg, neither of your points pissed me off. Well said on both counts. You put all that way better than I could have, or did, for that matter. I can't speak to anything regarding PJ personally, and wouldn't anyway even if I could. But it is true that as a general rule, death all of a sudden makes saints out of people. I try to be honest about people I know who have died, even after death. I'm not going to run somebody down, but I won't gloss over who they were, either.
And I won't say "shame on him" because of the choice he made. What's done is done.
He had tried to do the right things for himself and others. Life got too much and he needed peace. Give positivity to those left behind; they need all they can get. Yes, if you know somebody you haven't talked to in a while just give him or her a call; you never know what the reaching out you do for that person can mean to them. My senior citizen population has a suicide rate that is rather high from what I have read: Sickness, pain, feeling useless. My girlfriend who is gone from suicide said to me several times how much more am I supposed to take?
I'm sorry that you lost your friend. At the same time, while this was sad, it was written with love, compassion, and understanding. Ultimately, it's our choice as to what we do with our lives. They belong to us, and no one else. I have never experienced depression, so can't comment on that. But I am glad that this man is at peace. It's no one's fault. Sometimes, these things happen. He didn't just have one bad day and decide to kill himself. He thought long and hard about it, and I agree with those who say that his decision ought to be respected. Rest in peace, PJ, and may you finally find the happiness that so eluded you in life.
Neither point upset me. You're so right!
The thing is, I hate that too, when someone dies and everyone gets all mushy. My stepdad wasn't nice. I did what I did for my mom. He did teach me things, and I have to remember that as well.
It's not a crime to say you didn't like someone who's left this world. I'm sure they'd prefer our honesty.
As far as selfishness, I get that too. If I didn't take "Me Time," I'd struggle to hold my life together. So yes, take time to be selfish. Even parents need time for themselves.
Anyway, speaking of me time, I'm going to take some. You all stay safe.
RIP, PJ.
Blessings,
Sarah
That post was so beautiful and now, I truly appreciate what it means to leave people behind. I've been affected by both suicide and near-suicide, and this honestly makes me feel a little better about it.